Sage Francis interview

Sage Francis
By Mike Hammer
Jul 19, 2007

Sage Francis tears holes in hypocrisy and mainstream hip-hop with his thoughtful stories of the human condition. The wordsmith spits rhymes that make you think, make you smile, and flow beautifully over high-tempo beats. His new album, Human the Death Dance, was released May 8 on Epitaph Records and has charted well on Billboard’s “Top Independent Albums” list. The album is a hip-hop work of art that mixes cutting edge beats from indie rap producers like Alias and Reanimator and Ant, as well as Sage’s insightful personal and pop cultural rants. The 16-track disc is what Sage calls a “wrap up” album of all his previous work.

I sat down with Sage in Cleveland, Ohio to hear some things about the indie hip-hop scene, his abnormal MySpace page, the first rhyme he ever wrote, greedy publishing companies and more.

Mike Hammer: Your Web site (www.sagefrancis.net) has tracks streaming for free. Is that a good thing for artists to do?
Sage Francis: People can do whatever they want online. Me streaming my music just skips a step so that they don’t go to another site and hear it. On my MySpace page there are like 20 songs there, which is abnormal. Most people don’t get that many songs there but I made a deal with the devil.
MH:
With Rupert Murdoch huh?
SF:
Yeah. I told him, “If you want the privilege of having me involved with your network you start throwing some bones.”
MH:
I hear ya. Did you threaten to go to Facebook?
SF:
Yeah. I’m gonna two time on all of ‘em.
MH:
I think the Internet streaming music is a great resource for underground artists, but lately they had that crackdown on Internet radio stations.
SF:
Yeah, yeah. Publishing companies have stepped in and started to charge people (Web radio stations) for the same type of stuff that venues are charged for, and regular radio stations. Basically any business establishment that plays published artists from ASCAP or BMI … there’s a few … they’re bullies man, they’re bullies about it. That’s some big business shit and it’s unfortunate because Internet radio was a great prospect at exposing a whole bunch of people to new music and people just were streaming free and now they’re coming down with the hammer and it’s just gross. I have no respect for that. I don’t care if it makes me more money, it does, I’m a member of those groups I have to be for all the stuff that I’m doing, but I don’t respect that. The people who care about making that money are only the publishing companies. Most artists, especially artists on a smaller, independent level never see publishing money anyway. So… I’m wondering where all that money disappears to. It ends up in somebody’s pocket.
MH:
Are you seeing any royalty money yet?
SF:
Just recently I started seeing some. I had to go through an agency that specializes in retrieving publishing funds; it was a big pain in the ass and a huge process. So you actually have to involve middlemen in order to get money, then get them paid, then other people get paid, and I really don’t think it’s about artists seeing money for their work. I think it’s about a bunch of other people implicating themselves, and getting money that probably isn’t really deserved to them and ending up with money that other people don’t know how to retrieve.
MH:
How do you make most of your money? Is it always live shows and selling merchandise and such?
SF:
Yep. Well, I run an independent record label called Strange Famous Records so I’ve always seen money for what I have released, but we’re starting to put out other people’s stuff. But touring is a great money maker, if you have the ability to put to put on a good live show and you have the stamina to put on one after another then you should be good. It’s just a tough market right now though. It gets tougher and tougher. It’s flooded beyond belief. Our booking agency, the main guy Christian at the Kork Agency, just did an interview where he said he has to book shows six months ahead of time now in order to get a band into a club and preparing that much ahead of time takes professional work. So, for a band starting out that wants to do their own tour, to book their own tour, it’s virtually impossible.
MH:
For any type of music?
SF:
Yeah. All I know is the music we do, the indie hip-hop scene, but also rock and roll, the indie rock scene and I would say probably any genre, we’re all sharing the same clubs, so it’s the same thing.
MH:
You mentioned Strange Famous, how long has that been around?
SF:
Well, the beginning stages were in 1996 when I started putting out my own stuff but I didn’t start using the name until probably 1999. We started putting out tapes, then it was burned CDs then we started printing things up and the bigger things got the more official we became and started hiring staff. Now we have a mail out room and we have an office and it’s starting to come together.
MH:
You actually started rapping when you were eight-years-old, what’s the first rhyme you wrote? Or the first one you recall?
SF:
The first one I recall is actually featured on the new album in the intro. Cause I recorded it on a tape deck, and it was like “I’m chillin, I’m chillin, I dealin I’m never ever illin, take that pill and you won’t be livin.”
I don’t know if most people know that those voices are actually me in different stages of my life in the intro of my album, but that’s on there.
MH:
What made you write that first rhyme? Why did you start writing?
SF:
I was listening to hip-hop and lovin’ it and I was the kinda kid, and I think most kids are like this, when they love something they automatically want to involve themselves in it and participate and they’re not as inhibited as adults are and they’re just ready to go. And I was ready to go. I had a tape deck and… it was probably also cause I couldn’t get enough hip-hop.
MH:
Who were you listening to at that time?
SF:
Run DMC, Fat Boys, L.L. Cool J and a lot of radio stuff I was able to access through 88.9 WERS, which was in Boston, and they introduced me to Rakim and Spoonie Gee and Ice Tea… the list goes on and on.
MH:
OK. Hearing that first stuff inspired you then, but what inspires you now? What inspired you to write this new album?
SF:
I’ve just been on the path. It’s a path and I know that doesn’t really answer the question well but it’s like, I blazed a trail and I’m at where I’m at because I keep having to figure out how to get further and further and I don’t feel like stopping yet. It just keeps flowin, so I keep putting it down and people are listening and there’s no reason to stop now, might as well keep putting out the records.
MH:
Did you have a specific goal in mind with Human the Dead Dance?
SF:
Not really. For this record I really was just, I wanted it to be reflective, I was looking back … the album is a culmination of all styles that had come out previously on all my other records. I think each record before this had it’s own voice and this record incorporates a whole bunch of different voices of mine, and it’s kind of a wrap up record. As if it was the end of the trilogy, as if it’s trying to wrap it all up and I do think it’s the end of a certain style of record making for me. I wanna kinda abandon ship after this and go in a whole different direction. Maybe. We’ll see what happens. But I think it’s a good time to do that though.
MH:
Was the process of making this record particularly grueling?
SF:
Well, I used the same engineer. I worked with a multitude of producers that I’ve worked with on almost every other album and there were some new producers to that came in, but it’s like a mish-mash, a mix tape style of an album. The subject matter and concepts are wide ranging and it’s a pretty revealing record, just exposing shit that I’ve been through and what I’ve learned in my life and how I learned it, and that’s kinda what the purpose of the album is; as far as the content goes.
MH:
What’s more important in a song, the beats in a song or the lyrics? To you?
SF:
I’m a lyricist and that’s where my focus is, but I’ve got a high respect for the music and I’m always on the search for the best accompaniment to the lyrics. But, without music I’ll always have the lyrics. And that’s why I’ve done spoken word for as long as I have, cause sometimes I’m just left with no music.
MH:
Do you consider yourself a poet?
SF:
Yeah, yeah. It’s a funny term, cause I don’t think anyone wants to walk around and say, “I’m a poet, I’m a poet” … but I work with words.
MH:
I always liked the term “warrior poets” from Braveheart.
SF:
Well. I’m a warrior.
MH:
So who are your favorite writers, whether in music or not?
SF:
Well, in music I’d give it up to Bob Dylan and John Lennon and for hip-hop, Buck 65 and… there’s a few in hip-hop, but I don’t know who’s inspiring me. Writers in general, I don’t read much but I get a big kick out of Bukowski, Hunter S. Thompson, Stephen King -- those are the authors I read most.
MH:
Do you consider yourself a hip-hop artist or a rapper, or other? Do you make hip-hop or rap? Is there a difference? And what’s the difference between what you do and the mainstream?
SF:
I don’t concern myself with those labels. I really don’t know. Myself I’m definitely hip-hop. I learned through hip-hop and I carry on the traditions of what I learned in hip-hop, but it’s obvious at this point and time that the type of music I make and what’s most popular in hip-hop, we don’t sound the same, we don’t talk about the same things, we have different approaches. But that itself is supposed to be hip-hop. Just cause it’s not the same, people are doing their own thing, that doesn’t mean that what I do isn’t hip-hop. But, if it ever ends up with a new title, I’ve said it time and time again, so be it. I came up with a term that maybe it should be called, but now I can’t remember it. Maybe it should be warrior music.
MH:
Warrior poets?
SF:
Yeah.
MH:
You’re a white warrior poet, is that tough in the hip-hop scene? What’s the diversity level in hip hop these days?
SF:
I don’t know what makes it tough to be a white artist. I don’t know what makes it easy to be a white artist. Before 2007… like 10 years ago, even five or six years ago, I can tell you what made it difficult to be a white hip-hop artist, and that was that people were not willing to accept white rappers into their scope. I’m sure they exist today, but now there are people who scout out rappers who are white, and that’s freaky. I’m not down with that. I wasn’t comfortable with people not listening to me because I’m white and I’m not down with people listening to me because I’m white. I don’t want it to define me. I don’t want it to include me or exclude me in anything. It’s gross.
MH:
Don’t you think they do that in other things, like sports maybe? They scout in Cuba and in Midwest USA because maybe different people with different backgrounds can do different things better or have different tools for success.
SF:
There’s a lot of social reasons for that. I came up in an era when white people where definitely scarce, at least in the public eye. If they were around they were behind the scenes. And here I was, jumping into battles and going into contests and it was a shock. Most people would be like, “Oh man a white guy is trying to do this, give me a break.” And it would influence me or inspire me to go above and beyond what was expected of me. It helped me a lot, and I think that helps, if a black dude is trying to play hockey and he already knows people are gonna be thumbin’ their nose he’s gonna push extra hard to prove himself, so … it’s like Tiger Woods on the golf course -- it’s good fuel. It’s good inspiration. But right now I have no answers. I think in 10 years from now I’ll have a much better idea of how it all worked at.
MH:
What do you think the best music is out there today? Who should our readers be listening to?
SF:
Jolie Holland who is a singer/songwriter, she’s ghostly, she’s like a black and white photo, she has beautiful music, beautiful voice and edgy lyrics. It’s really good stuff.
MH:
What do you guys listen to on tour?
SF:
Uh… I scour the radio looking for the hits, a lot of classic rock and Neil Young.
MH:
No talk radio? Sports talk? Left or right wing?
SF:
Um, a little bit. I’d say 2% of the time.
MH:
You do some politically inspired lyrics, but you don’t pay attention to that stuff on the radio?
SF:
I don’t. In fact Randi Rhodes from Air America came to our show in New York and she had never seen the show before or heard the music and when she heard the political songs she got really excited about it and has talked about the show and my music and I’m really excited about that but I had no idea who she was and she’s this huge talk DJ. So, maybe I should spend some more time listening to talk radio, but at the same time, no I shouldn’t. Yeah, I don’t think I should at all.
MH:
OK. The new album is Human the Death Dance, where did that name come from?
SF:
Buddy Wakefield, who is featured on the album, has a poem called “Human the Death Dance” which we chop up and sprinkle on the album.
MH:
If someone is reading this who is not familiar with you, what album of yours do you recommend they pick up?
SF:
Well, Personal Journals came out in 2002 and that broke me onto the scene, that’s the first official album that came out and it’s a little off kilter and it set me apart from everyone and helped me gain my own audience and I think most people, because it’s the oldest, tend to gravitate to that one the most. But each one that came after that I invested so much of myself into it… A Healthy Distrust came out after that and right now I’m kinda feeling like that was my best album. Human the Death Dance came out and I’m over-consumed by it I’ve just been around it too much and I’m trying to get it out of my head. Again, in 10 years ask me these same questions.
MH:
Alright, definitely, we’ll do it again in a decade.

Starting July 25 you can find Sage Francis on the Paid Dues tour, featuring Felt, Living Legends, Mr. Lif, Cage, Brother Ali and others. Paid Dues runs through August, then Sage jumps on the Rock the Bells festival tour featuring Rage Against The Machine, Wu-Tang Clan, Mos Def and more.

Strange Famous (www.strangefamousrecords.com) is planning new releases in the fall, including an album from Buck 65 (www.buck65.com).